The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Note: (No, the title does not refer to the 1960 film.) This topic was inspired first by a sarastic Fiona when I had thinker's block coming up with a question, and then further illicited by Eminem's recent album Relapse. Which (in my opinion) is a masterpiece work surrounding an individual's journey through anger, addiction, death--pretty much all forms of emotional trauma--and ultimately, a shard of hope. He can be kind of disturbing to see/hear, but I encourage you all to give him a chance.

SO MY QUESTION:
The concept of UNLIMITED POTENTIAL is integral to transcendentalism. Though the transcendentalists typically referred to this potential as a means to transcend upwards, unlimited potential also encompasses the potential for evil. Seeing as Ralph Waldo Emerson said in "Nature" that "the currents of the Universal Being(/Collective Unconsious) circulate through me; I am part or particle of God," what exactly goes on within the mind and being as a person carrys out evil deeds? How is it that evil sprouts from God's particles? Is the Universal Being ever tainted by "large-scale" evil deeds? What happens when a person goes about transcending within his or her realm of evil?

External Forums:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63148
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=153480&st=0&gopid=2922597&#entry2922597
http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/collective-unconscious-carl-jung-33899-3.html#lastpost
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http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=155704
http://www.christianforums.com/t7369861/#post51977831


Happy discussing!

FIRST. yes!

ok, wow. you just brought a whole new perspective to my eyes. YEAH!! what IF one is innately evil? (one's Being is evil??) which raises our debate about human beings being intrinsicly evil, or do we become evil because of environmental conditioning and the molding of the mind? SO in other words... is evil a product we are born with or a product of the mind??
If it's a product of the mind-- i say we can control it. Actually Eknath Easwaran said it. We can learn to control evil through meditation and ignoring the thoughts constantly being produced by the mind-- but that is only if evil is from the mind. If it's from the being, our unlimited human potential can be catastrophic and disastrous.

Nick has pointed this out in another thread-- humans aren't able to utilize this "unlimited" potential because we don't realize our potential. Although we are aware of the concept "unlimited human potential", we still aren't able to literally use it. We'd have to be apart of the conscious humanity and there is only one in a million who is able to live in peace, one in a billion who is able to transcend all boundaries, but no man/woman has excelled to his/her fullest potential. Agree or disagree? And if we THINK we're striving at our fullest potential... how do we know we're not just creating more boundaries while striving?? like, we could create a bunch of boundaries to steer us in the right direction couldn't we? and do you guys think it's actually realistic? (sorry i'm digressing, maybe just consider the questions but don't literally answer them) okiee that's it for me!! ttfn!

what exactly goes on within the mind and being as a person carrys out evil deeds? How is it that evil sprouts from God's particles? Is the Universal Being ever tainted by "large-scale" evil deeds? What happens when a person goes about transcending within his or her realm of evil?

Wow. This sure is a new way of thinking of the material presented in class. First off, it seems to me that, during class discussions, we’ve come to the consensus that people are usually ignorant of their Beings and do not know how to utilize its power – whether in a good way or a bad way. So then, in that sense, if we don’t allow our being to even express itself, how do we know that it is intrinsically evil? But let’s go with the assumption that it is innately evil. Then, perhaps our being is actually being used in our daily life? Maybe we’ve just been trained by the being to think that it is the mind that is evil, not it. This seems like what something that is tainted with evil would do – to put the blame on others. If that is the case, then we’re actually being manipulated by our being into thinking that the ego mind is what is the cause of all our problems?

What do you mean by transcending within his or her realm of evil? To become even more possessed by evil? If this could be the case, then perhaps what I said above wasn’t entirely correct? Maybe we are intrinsically evil, both in our mind and in our being. However, since we don’t usually gain awareness towards the function of our being, we end up living off of our ego mind, which in a sense, is the origin of some evils – vanity, greedy, etc. So does transcending within his or her realm of evil mean that the individuals has unlocked the door to their being, and is letting the innate evil slip through, which will end up fueling more evil?

But then, if the being is evil, wouldn’t it want to have control over the individual? Wouldn’t it want to fulfill its poisonous deeds by making itself dominant? Then why is it that we have a hard time accessing our being? Is it because of my first theory – that the being is indeed controlling us – it’s just tricking us into believing that the ego mind is the bad guy?

:O that is an appalling thought, how we are innately evil (and how the universal being is innately evil), especially the way Vicky describes it in her first paragraph. pure evilllll. but what vicky brings up is really interesting stuff. kudos to you vick

haha, but your question, steph, totally reminded me of someone else's thread, where in it, i was like 'what if in order to live life to the fullest, i want to experience the bad stuff, like committing crimes (we later agreed that that example was a bit too extreme), or i simply want to stop being the goody-two-shoes, at least for a bit.' the catch here, though, is that i actually havent. i mightve had all these thoughts, but theyve never been executed. do you think that shows something? (Lee made some good points in that. I'll go back and find which thread/which parts later)

Mike's thread, page 2. maybe there's more in the pages after

Vincent_Lee wrote:

joyceychen wrote:
haha well i know that there have been moments in my life where i've wondered what it'd be like to not be goody-two-shoe. i think that's really where i was coming from when i mentioned the crime things. maybe committing a crime is too "extreme." but i dont know, sometimes it feels like following the rules, being the good girl restricts something inside of me (being??)

joyceychen wrote:ANYHOW, back to my first train of thought. how out of it would i be to say i want to be a bad girl for once? or is that my egomind just trying to get satisfaction/temporary contentment from some random feeling. because it's not like i walk around 24/7 with this feeling. it probably only pops up once in a while, depending on my current situation. so it sounds like some external factor triggers such feelings in me. so then i probably shouldnt follow it because that's not my being, more like my egomind.

It seems to me like that urge is coming from the Being actually. With your description, it seems like a sudden spontaneous desire, which would fit under Being. The egomind's voice chatters on noisly and incessantly, so perhaps if you have that nagging desire to do something bad all the time that might be your egomind. I'm not completely confident of that however. I believe that if you have this feeling that something's missing and that doing a certain thing might fill up that emptiness, then it's your being.

hm...i'm going back through Mike's thread and it seems like we conclude that such "evil thinking" comes from the egomind, though the initial urge, as Lee states, could be from the being. if that somehow makes logical sense.
BUT THEN, if vicky says is true....

hello stephanie.

"the currents of the Universal Being(/Collective Unconsious) circulate through me; I am part or particle of God," what exactly goes on within the mind and being as a person carrys out evil deeds? How is it that evil sprouts from God's particles?

im glad you view the concepts that we learn through all different perspectives, not just of those that we learn during class because we tend to forget the "other" side to the unlimited potential within humans, we want to look for the brighter sides of our beings, then therefore forget all the crap that is done out there in reality.

hmmm maybe God isnt all that perfect..maybe he got his reputation from people's perspectives and their want for a higher being to guide them. But lets just say He actually is real, God might let the evil sprout through humans to teach them and to guide them --> to help them journey and learn through experience. Evil has to come in order to have something to gain knowledge from because then we try to make up ways to prevent it therefore developing. Thikn about it, if we didnt have evil, how could we have gotten to where we are now? However, people might say "well we wouldnt have needed to get to where we are now if there was no evil in the first place" this is also very true, but i thnk we wouldnt have as much knowledge and experience as we do now if we didn't have evil.

What exactly goes on inside the being and mind of the person who carries out the evil? hmm well just ask yourself (not to be mean or antyhing, im just saying we probably all have done something not so nice in our lives )..what goes on in our mind? well i think what causes us to do the evil is external influences which stirrs up our negative emotions (lust, greed, envy, etc) therefore we want to then get revenge oor outbest the other person. we have a tendency to want things that we cant have or be above everyone else, therefore when our negative emotions arise, these evil thoughts just dominate our head and because THOUGHTS create REALITY, the evilness is catalyzed through our action. I think the being is being suppressed by the negativity of the ego-mind, therefore is just covered up so it has nothing to do wtih the evilness. hmm ..

what exactly goes on within the mind and being as a person carrys out evil deeds? How is it that evil sprouts from God's particles?

I definitely do think that transcendence isn’t all just about the positive perception of “unlimited potential”; there can be particles of evil there too. We are not all made to yearn for the same things and to have the same desires, and therefore can’t achieve or accomplish everything to the same degree as everybody else around us can. I think this is where our individuality comes in; it is a treasure that is solely our own. At certain points in our lives, we may begin to want different things and seek different signs of inspiration that cultivate our thinking and motivate us to devote ourselves to reaching a certain goal. Some of us choose to enter the “realm of evil,” and although this does not necessarily translate as a realm of destruction, it does not seem as if it is a place of purity. As for what goes on within the mind ... these “evil deeds” can be really bad habits, I’m sure. Or perhaps it’s a step further – stealing and killing. Maybe these actions are the decisions that are powered by some sort of motivation (since everything, I believe, has an act of motivation/purpose behind it) that is not of a positive nature. Perhaps the person simply feels that it is right/normal/necessary, or some other attitude and/or reason, for them to carry out the evil deed(s). At the moment of committing the evil deed, there is a heavy emphasis placed upon the thought of getting the job done, I think. Just do it. And what if the evil deed has undergone months of careful planning and organizing? I don’t know about that, but I’m sure that there’s always motivation behind it; that motivation is the drive for committing the evil deed.

I think that God’s particles (human beings) undergo a series of transformations and changes that result in the sprouting of evil. This then relates, maybe, to the workings of the ego-mind, the self/essence, etc. I’m not going to really get into that, but I tend to think that (or I’m just being really positive) God’s particles are pure from the start. Well, at least they are untainted by society and its norms and forms of conditioning. After the colors of society start blending in with the simplicity of the particles, and influence and affect them in millions of different ways, some form of evil is bound to sprout.

To clear up Vicky's question, "What do you mean by transcending within his or her realm of evil?" in case it confuses anyone else:
Let's say a person has done something bad, like stabbed his imaginary friend. At first it might not seem like such a big deal, but if he sees that he gets no punishment and/or does not feel morally screwed-up, he might want to commit more acts of the same sort. Just like a "good" kid might want to get better and better in volleyball, this kid might want to transcend his previous evil acts (that he himself may not condsider evil.) He might end up stabbing real people and keep "transcending" from there. So in a nutshell, "transcending within his or her realm or evil" = committing more frequent/intense acts of evil.

Much thanks for the insightful replies within the last two hours ^^

Evil is defined at dictionary.com as

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
or
marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc

Many people have debated over the fact if people were created on this earth innately evil, innately good, or others saying that humans were born neutral, evil or good depends on the social conditioning in the future.

People live in a cycle on this earth, birth, growth, and death. We see many different kinds of people, good people, evil people, tall people, short people, etc..What are these things determined by? Tall and short obviously are a combination of genetics and the environment but what is good and bad determined by? Lets take a different perspective. right now in this defining moment, i see a bunch of smiley icons on to my right. Using the beginners mind, each smiley has equally the same chance that it would be chosen by me to put into this paragraph. Thus, Potential is high. I may choose or even . You may ask me way but i would respond with "Just because" Evil or Good within humans occur with the same potential. Equally likely like and . It all depends on chance, on environment, on "just because"

Back to your question, what is the mindset of these evil people perfoming evil deeds. I would say good and evil are pretty subjective, and relative terms in the society today. One may drive a car creating tons of exhaust and feel totally good about it and others seeing this go on may jump to the conclusion of an evil man driving the car. Yet, why does this man think driving this car is perfectly fine while others hate their guts? I believe it is the ego mind taking over. The ego produced from school, from parents, from media. The potential is always there yet it is blocked by the ego mind. The potential always exists to transcend upward, yet it is fogged by the ego mind, terminated by the ego mind, and blinded by the ego mind. The ego produces so much voice that we can not see ourselves clearly, that I cant find the or the smileys unless i scroll up. I reckon Good and Evil are the same thing: products of the ego mind. The soul is neither good nor evil, It is merely present and existing.

Jtizzel

Wouldn't this boil downto whether or not the universal essence itself is evil? and then we have to ask again - what is evil? isn't it but a concept? What fits in the category of evil - when it prevents other ppl from their rights to life? Is it something that conjures up negative emotions in other people? The line between good and bad is often murky- just wanted to put that out there for you guys.

is it even possible to describe the universal being as good/bad?? aren't those words that we try to put on essence so we can communicate with each other better?

but i think what ur asking really isn't what i just put upthere. so there i go for another attempt at a response:

i think that that has happened already - think of hitler, of napolean, of maozedong - all these "EVIL" people who have explored their potentials fearlessly, and they indeed have made their mark upon history as the "BAD GUYS". But then again, if everything hpapens for a reason, then there must be a reason why they got to expand their "EVILNESS" right? could it be that the egomind generated the desire to do bad, and this desire was strong enought o draw power from the universal oneness? "When one asks God for courage, God does not respond by giving one courage. Rather, God gives one the opportunity to be courageous." So there, maybe the evilness that presides out there are actually opportunities for people to do good - or at least to grow in some way. After all, crisis in chinese is composed of the characters "danger" and "opportunity" right?

Does that at all help?! O_O i'll get back to this, i promise >< sorry if the thoughts are all messed up guys

HEY EVERYONE thanks for the responses so far =)
Really interested in the various perspectives and viewpoints used to address the question at hand and where these discussions will lead. Please remember to tie your "evil" thoughts into the supreme being. Does one "evil" person affect others through the supreme being/collective unconsious?

And just beacuse we may never be able to prove our conclusions:


stephsquared:

Although we are aware of the concept "unlimited human potential", we still aren't able to literally use it. We'd have to be apart of the conscious humanity and there is only one in a million who is able to live in peace, one in a billion who is able to transcend all boundaries, but no man/woman has excelled to his/her fullest potential. Agree or disagree? And if we THINK we're striving at our fullest potential... how do we know we're not just creating more boundaries while striving?? like, we could create a bunch of boundaries to steer us in the right direction couldn't we? and do you guys think it's actually realistic?

Before I address that^ I just wanted to say "If it's from the being, our unlimited human potential can be catastrophic and disastrous." Agreed! Vicky and Joyce have similar views there.

About unlimited human potential, I totally feel you. The concept of unlimited human potential definitely exists, yet it is practically unattainable, because of the reasons you've mentioned. We're only human, we're bound to slip up somewhere and go off on a tangent, or unknowingly create boundaries on our way to transcend boundaries. Anyhow, this is a bit of a digression, but I'm glad you brought it up because I, in my question, am also seeking to kind of poke holes at the idea of transcendentalism. Not because I reject it though, I'm just kind of skeptical I guess. I also have some follow up questions that will be posted later this week that may touch on what you have brought up. So thanks for the input and keep contributing

Vicky & joyceychen: You guys have discussed the possibility of the Being being the manipulator as opposed to the ego mind. This isn't really the way I indended the discussion to go, but I think what you've proposed is very valid. Who's to say that our Being has to be the perfectly pure one? Kind of scary though, to think about not having a true moral conscience within us. In response to the confusion with the transcending evil, please refer to my previous reply. About your speculations about the Being being the bad guy...so maybe the ego is just the "good" dressing up of the evil Being. It covers up our intrinsic evil just enough for us to function from day to day. Ha, I like to hope not though :/ I think the best evidence that the Being does not permeate with evil are the meditators that have become "one" with their beings and thus achieved enlightenment.

kathy:

we want to look for the brighter sides of our beings, then therefore forget all the crap that is done out there in reality.

You said it.
Nice bringing the experience of committing evil in. So maybe being evil is just a milestone in our transcending in that we learn from it? I'd agree if we were guarunteed to learn and change, but it isn't always that way. (Just ask ourselves? lol) I don't have like a super clean slate or anything, yet I still feel vunerable to being evil sometimes...

Angel: I like that you took a different approach to the question, that its more of an individual choice or tendency. Do you, then, see it as a consious choice? or more of an inclination to a particular path? You said that a series of transformations must occur from the beginning, PURE, being in order to become evil. Relating it more to the Supreme Being, do you think that one person's evilness with influence those around him/her?

JTizzel & Annie Fu:

I would say good and evil are pretty subjective, and relative terms in the society today. One may drive a car creating tons of exhaust and feel totally good about it and others seeing this go on may jump to the conclusion of an evil man driving the car. Yet, why does this man think driving this car is perfectly fine while others hate their guts? I believe it is the ego mind taking over. The ego produced from school, from parents, from media. The potential is always there yet it is blocked by the ego mind. The potential always exists to transcend upward, yet it is fogged by the ego mind, terminated by the ego mind, and blinded by the ego mind.

I like that you pointed out the subjectivity of good and evil and the "just beacuse" that determines the way things play out. But for the purpose of the question, I'm going to try to stick to less blurred instances of good/evil that you pointed out. Your points are completely valid, and they go to show how blurred the line is in transcendentalism altogether. When we think we are transcneding, we might as well be totally pissing off the people around the car with the exhaust. Exactly, what IS evil? But yeah, just for the sake of determining this good/evil's influnece on the supreme being, let's try to stick more to workable definitions.

Wow...that really is an interesting question.

Expanding from the concept of how people manage the evil side of themselves if they have unlimited potential, I thought about something else that isn't exactly an answer but more of another discussion thinger.

Remember how we read Lord of the Flies last year and the theme was basically that the author believed that humans are inherently evil and that the society is necessary to civlize the evil within us to help all of us get along with one another. So going further with such a belief, then doesn't this kind of go against transcendentalist beliefs? It is said through Emerson's essays that humans do have unlimited potential except that the society usually tends to limit us with societal and uniform thinking. Then, let's say that the society didn't exist and that the humans' inherent evil could have unlimited potential. Coming to that, then da** that would be disastrous.

Then again, there are other books that talk about inherent good within humans. Like Confucius. His beliefs was that there is inherent good within all humans but through society's conditioning and beliefs, people become more afflicted with evil. Then, just like as discussed, the inherent good within all of us will take over and grow through unlimited potential and create even more good in this world.

HOWEVER.

I have a question here then -- the definition of evil and good, are they from the ego-mind or from the essence? The definition of evil and good is heavily connected to religion and people's moral grounds, but didn't evil come to be because humans began to commit them? Okay I'm going in circles but I would like to see what people think about this :]

Annie Fu wrote:i think that that has happened already - think of hitler, of napolean, of maozedong - all these "EVIL" people who have explored their potentials fearlessly, and they indeed have made their mark upon history as the "BAD GUYS".

In response to Annie's, I personally think that Hitler, Napoleon, and Mao ZeDong were marked upon history as the bad guys (Napoleon, however, not really) because they explored their ideologies with their unlimited potential but in the process got wallowed up with their own ego-mind to eat up more power and inflict it upon others by exploiting it. Mao had his ideal belief that men should be treated equally through a utopian society called communism. Technically speaking, communism is not a bad idea for a government. It emphasizes upon the working force and equality among all others. However, it can be seen as impossible for humans to follow these ideal beliefs because of human tendencies to become corrupt, lazy, etc. So over here, it is more like their ego-minds took over to become labeled as the BAD GUYS.

If so, then does this mean that evil comes from the ego-mind and the society?

Is there really something called evil? Because good and bad, batman(g) vs joker(b), spidey vs sandman, all are just a creation of the human ego bah. If everyone was born into this world pristine and equal, with the beginners mind, then there is no classification of good and bad on the subject being. Once this pure life force interacts with the closest energy webs, his or her parents, the newborn baby is affected by the external source, and will probably draw upon it. If the family turns out to be "normal" then the baby will prob turn out to be a good human being, if the family is "corrupted" then the baby will turn out to be evil? (freewrite)

Im really screwing up on explaining myself, but how can there be an evil essence if the universal being is not meant to be classified?

Evil is probably created through the egotisitic mind, something or someone that does harm to nature with intention?

Dizzy, 7am in morning.

The line between good and bad is often murky- just wanted to put that out there for you guys.

Yes, I agree with Annie and JT here. What defines evil? Words are just ways for us to express our feelings. Then isn’t the definition of evil subjective? One may think that by harming the environment, regardless of how the act may benefit the individual, the person is committing an evil act? Another person may have the conviction that as long as what the person is doing is beneficial to him or herself, then it is a valid act, and is therefore, not evil.

So this brings us back to the discussion of whether the being – and on a larger scale, the Universal Being – is innately evil. Perhaps the being, too, is trying to “improve” the individual. It does so by commanding acts that may be perceived as “evil” from another’s point of view. We know that the being consists of energy that has congregated to “create” the individual. Maybe the energy wants to attract more energy – to make a “huger ball of energy?” Uh..okay I don’t know what I’m saying anymore.

If this is the case – that the being is only being “evil” in order to improve the individual – the perhaps the being itself is not evil? It is like the ego mind in its intent on helping the person gain objects or qualities that will enhance the individual’s chance of survival?

Well...as with most questions, this answer boils down to perspective and POV of each individual. Beacuse everyone is unique and has their own thoughts and mind, they had different definitions of what is and isnt right. what is good or what is evil. urg i really hate this cause then that means most answer come down to diff. POV's so then there is no DEFINATE answer and i thikn im more classicist so i want a def. answer...

OK ANYWAYS, as JT said in class today and on his reply, maybe somethings are just meant to happen. you know how people always say "everything happens for a reason" and how people believe that God (or Hihger being) has already made a path for us and every choice made, is a stepping stone on that journey. As much as i hate not being able to classify things, i dont think there is a way to classify everything we do..maybe it was just meant to be. Even if it is considered as "evil," it may also be what leads us to becoming a better person, thus becomes something "good."

to your question, when people are committting the evil crime, maybe they are actually trying to experience and explore all parts of life..i mean they dont INTEND to do it, maybe they just got lost in their ego-mind along the way..like JODY (their eyes) i mean i dont think he INTENDED to suppress Janie with his power, i thikn because he thought of her as someone higher than the commoners out of his love for her, he eventually began to exclude her from what she wanted to do without even knowing it. its like having the ego-mind going into overdrive unconsciously.

Hey guys, so clearly it's very hard to pinpoint the definition of evil, and as perspectives and classifications potentially vary immensely, defining it gets no simpler. I think from now on I will refer to irrationality (think Edgar Allan Poe) as the opposite of the "normal" transcendence of self and circumstances. (Speak to any objections to "irrationality" or forever hold your peace )

Nonetheless, we have reached somewhat of a consensus that "evil acts" are ego-mind based (with our colorful examples of Hitler and Napolean), unlimited potential can extend to both positive and negative sides, that family/society have a say in the moral compass of an individual, and that "evil" acts may serve to teach us lessons.

A reply from an external forum said taht while the collective unconsious can influence individuals, an individual's actions, even if "evil," cannot go back and "contaminate" the source (collective unconsious). What do you guys think?

Also with what we have discussed so far in mind, is there a limit to a person's irrationality/immorality? Think about with yourself or someone you know well, when you have done something irrational, do you just forget about it or do you stop and correct it? What goes through your/a person's mind if you/they do come around?
Is it possible to never come off irrational morals?

hey guys! what you guys have been mentioning, like Kathy said, boils down to our discussion in class.

Going a bit scientific here, humans along with other more primitive species such as a seahorse or a bear have something called the instinctual brain. In the spiral dynamics packet, we learn that we began with the instinctual brain-- the part of our control system that puts biological/inherent/ innate/ instinctual/ original behaviors/ responses into action. It is apart of our essence-- not artificially developed; instinct. OK then more advanced species like the ape family-- began developing the prefrontal cortex-- which gives us the ability to control our instinctual behaviors or reactions through reason, logic, rationality etc. And nonetheless we have the mind-- which explains our unecessary thoughts/ extra and incomprehensible behavior--produces EMOTION, which screws us up sometimes... like Rosa said, unlimited human potential will get lost and corrupted by ego mind, depending on the individual's ability to have self-trust/ self-confidence/ connect with the Being.

Why did i list all that out? this is to give us a more concise perspective of viewing our unlimited human potential. So like Kathy said, perhaps we're just utilizing our "potential" (IF IT'S ACTUALLY UNLIMITED HUMAN POTENTIAL/ACT OF TRANSCENDING ALL BOUNDARIES THAT IS) but this resulted in evil. But by thinking outside the box, we might just have labelled it evil- though there is no way of proving it. Because we have such a developed prefrontal cortex and an advanced mind, we will automatically classify/ label things-- in this case, EVIL. (beacuse our logic--prefrontal cortex-- tells us so, but in a more natural outlook, it's may not be so) Like Tizzle said, perhaps things just happen, just because.

From my opinion i think evil is simply just perspective and behavior. Because some people's perspective/outlook/ view/ behavior bring us emotional and physical pain, our mind will classify this as BAD. And whoever does these BAD things is evil. I think this is why some people are "evil" and others are "benevolent" because the "evil" group of people believe in this and this and view life in this way.... but "benevolent" group views life another way etc.. It's just that societies have experienced the result/ outcome of the "evil" group of people and they have been hurt in some way or another that on extremely general terms, it's considered taboo or a big no no. But realisticly, in my opinion though, we're all human with three different parts of our brain that is correlated with our actions and thoughts, thus we tend to make things so complex-- like this discussion right here. From a very very general perspective i think it's because we're human-composed of the highly developed mind, prefrontal cortex, and the instinctual brain.

Do you, then, see it as a consious choice? or more of an inclination to a particular path?

Not all things and actions are committed during conscious periods of time. Meaning, we are not always aware of what we are doing at, say, a particular moment. This leads me to thinking about spontaneity and impulse. So yes, it appears to be that the tendency to develop evil ways is more of an “inclination to a particular path,” since we all do things that are “right on the spot” and propel us to act before we think. “Conscious choice” sounds to me like something that is planned and carefully constructed, and although evil deeds often do have techniques of organization behind them, but I think the motivation behind that is bound to change/transform slightly with the passing of time and with outer influences, etc. Impulse is not measured in long intervals of time, however. The motivation behind that is entirely momentary, and therefore unchangeable. (I wonder if this “fleeting” motivation can be lost, however).

Relating it more to the Supreme Being, do you think that one person's evilness with influence those around him/her?

We are all at one, since we are all interconnected and related to the Supreme Being, the universal truth and existence. I do think that one person’s evilness can influence others around him/her, but perhaps in a more indirect manner. The spontaneity and our drive (motivation) for committing certain acts cannot all be transmitted into the drives of others, and although individual thoughts may affect those of others, I don’t think that – even on the more spiritual plane – evilness can pass from person to person directly. One’s acts can affect the decisions of others, but no two motivations can be precisely the same, I think. So although we are all part of this wholeness, we still possess our own individualities and evilness, in its initial phase, can’t exactly be delivered around.

Hi Steph,
Your topic is almost the complete opposite of my topic. haha. Love and Evil. Two extraordinarily vast topics.
So, is love the opposite of evil? Cuz you know, when we are truly in love, nothing really goes on in our minds. Maybe when people are committing evil, their minds tell them that it is for a just reason. This is what Eph is saying about perspective.
A group of people may believe that one thing is evil, while another group believes it is not. For example, in the Amazon forest, a group of loggers may believe environmentalists are evil because by advocating the conservation of the forest, they are starving the families of the loggers. However, the environmentalists may believe that the loggers are evil because they are cutting down our oxygen source and destroying the home of millions of species. So who is right? Which one is the true evil?

Hm....or are you talking about conscious evil? Many believe that the evil they are committing is just, as I said above, so it's a conscious evil for a just reason. The people I outlined above believe that they are doing the right thing. Do they still have an effect on the universal consciousness, if evil DOES have an effect on the UC?

An individual's actions, even if "evil," cannot go back and "contaminate" the source (collective unconsiousness)

Well, the source has responsibility for the individual's actions. Therefore it is probably altered in some way by the evil deeds. Hm.

On a side note:
Who says that evil can't be a means to achieve a good end?
This will probably lead to the whole "means justifying ends" discussion, so let's not go there. Let's just assume that means DO justify ends. Ok let's say that the good consequence of the evil act committed is greater than the evil act itself. The benefits outweigh the costs. So in the end, the evil act is justifiable. This makes it not an evil act anymore. Perhaps the holocaust killed a Jewish person. If he hadn't been killed, one of his descendants would have become the dictator of a country armed with nuclear weapons. If he hadn't been killed, he would have triggered a nuclear war. If he hadn't been killed, he would have destroyed the world. So then is the Holocaust still evil? Yes I know I'm taking an extreme stance here.

A reply from an external forum said taht while the collective unconsious can influence individuals, an individual's actions, even if "evil," cannot go back and "contaminate" the source (collective unconsious). What do you guys think?

Hey Steph!

Interesting topic! I agree with this quote because I don't think it is possible to contaminate (or make something) that is INIFINITE in possibilities and potential evil or good--because doesn't the Collective Unconscious, which encompasses every trait and characteristic that we can possibly have, already have all the potential that we consider evil and all the potential that we consider good? Because evil is really more subjective than objective (it's okay to kill animals for food but not okay to kill for fur), the Universal Being is infinite in its potential, which means that ultimately, it has all the pure energy that will either be considered good or evil when they manifest into actions and behaviour.

Therefore, how can a particle of the energy soup of infinite possibilities behave or influence the entire soup with its actions in a way that has never been precedented? Wouldn't that then contradict the definition of 'INFINITE'? Whatever the individual does--whether morally correct or morally wrong in the eyes of the people--it is just a potential from a vast, infinity of potential. Infinity encapsulates everthing--so maybe that is kind of restricting, thinking about how we can never go beyond it--but that just means that anything we can possibly think of is possible.

Also with what we have discussed so far in mind, is there a limit to a person's irrationality/immorality? Think about with yourself or someone you know well, when you have done something irrational, do you just forget about it or do you stop and correct it? What goes through your/a person's mind if you/they do come around?Is it possible to never come off irrational morals?

There isn't exactly a limit to a person's irrantionality. Take Usher from Edgar Allan Poe's The Fall of the House of Usher. He was viewed as irrational, but he kept on acting the way he did because he believed that what he was seeing and hearing was reality. Thus, when people say that we are crazy or evil, yet we choose to persist in our behaviour, doesn't that sometimes indicate a difference in our perceptions? Like some terrorists who will actually defend what they are doing as 'good deeds' because they believe with all their heart that the country that they are attacking is evil and that by destroying it, they are doing something godly. So, I do believe that everyone is inclined to do somethings that society might consider irrantional or immoral--unless we are always trying to follow the norms of society. But then wouldn't that mean that we will still be prone to commit immoral acts when society is in favor of such an act? Like in the case of racism or the torture of the people in countries that one's country invades. Followers of Hitler thoughts that they were doing the right thing by killing the Jews, that they were cleansing the world of some kind of infectious filth.

And thus, to come around from such irrationality would be to change one's mindset or perceive things differently. Like the white people during the pre-Civil War era might think that black people are trash, but once they get to know them and realize just how human and equal they are to the Whites, they will change their minds. In the same way, the only way to convince a 'crazy' person that whatever they're seeing is not real is to make that 'thing' that he or she is seeing disappear. Thus, to change them, you have to beat them at their own game, show them your way of thinking in their way of thinking--that their way of thinking is actually just part of your way of thinking and vice versa.

As you pointed out, many people theorize that evil is part of the ego mind, yet I say evil is innate, evil is intuitive, evil is part of this potential leading to negative or positive. As many of you said, the potential stored up as the collective unconsciousness can lead to either good or bad depending on the social build up/corruption and the nurturing environment an individual was raised up and taught in thus leading to the good or bad ego mind. Yet, this potential can not be classified between good or bad, positive or negative, evil or unevil, this potential is just pure potential. If we put it into scientific terms, if the Potential of something exists, this doesnt mean that the Kinetic energy would be high if it started rolling, it doesnt mean the kenetic energy would be low either, it is just simple, pure potential, a energy waiting to be consumed, or in other words, transformed into another form of energy that is more stable.

THus what im trying to say is, this pure potential is not just evil or not just good, it is one, it is both. It is like the total meaning to poetry, a combination of the way of saying and whats being said. It is the combination of an essay of both grammer mechanics, and ideas composing the work. Thus, i suggest evil being part of this innate, intuitive part of us as well as wisedom and intuition serves us positively.

JTIzzels Theory
I am not negleting the fact that the ego is in this thing. Yet, i would suggest the ego mind only serving as an amplifyer, a microphone that takes small and transforms it into big, exaggerates it, puts it into action, and this form of action, this Kinetic energy after the transformation from PE to KE serves as what we call today, good or bad, negative or positve, evil or unevil.

Evil produced by the ego mind can not contaminate this source. The KE of a rock after it has been rolled from a high mountain with high PE, will not affect the PE previously since PE is already the passed, already occured, yet interesting enough, always present, just in the form of KE. BUT, at this specific time interval A when the rock was HIGh of PE on the mountain, no matter how much KE there is after the rock has been rolled down, the PE at the time interval A will not be affected. PE being the being, while KE being the egomind.

hihi stephh

I think an individual's essence cant be contaminated with the evil doings of a person. Because the inner being is in touch with the higher power/ universal soul and that helps the inner being to be kept clean and away from our ego mind irrationality. Because the collective consciousness is part of the larger whole, in that oneness with all else, I dont think it is possible to contaminate and spoil that divine origin. Or else there would be no way that bad people could ever turn back and be good right? (If everyone simply had no choice after they have been past the point of no return?)

I think there is a limit to a person's irrationality in that because we are all connected to the universal being, whether we like it/ know it or not, we are. And that deeper connection, although blocked or thrown aside most of the time, serves as a kind of reminder to us that there are limits and boundaries to what we can do and cannot do. Its not that people can only be so bad, and setting up a boundary liek that. What i mean is that the inner being will have this softer voice that tells us and gently prods us to go in the right direction. However, many times, people ignore that soft reminder and go about their lives based purely on their ego minds. This is where people start becoming egocentric and irrational, because they have forgotten about the deeper connection with the universal being. However, I think that voice will continue to remind us to return to the right paths and eventually, we will get the hint and turn back. (Well... hopefully thats what happens)

I think people generally tend to "try" to forget about something wrong/irrational that they did and attemp to put it aside so that they dont have to constantly think about it. However, its just like how there is always a little angel and a little devil sitting on your shoulders, telling you what to do and how to make your choices. It is the same with the inner being. And sometimes when we do something that we know that we shouldnt have, we will have this gut feeling that it is not right and that we should go back to correct the mistake. Whether we actually take up the courage to do so is a separate discussion, but that feeling is undeniable. I suppose that even "bad" people will feel perhaps uneasy about something terribly wrong that they do. It is instinctual for us to get butterflies in our stomachs or a feeling of uneasiness when we do someething wrong, whether it is a big thing or a small wrongdoing.

I think what goes through a persons mind as they decide to u-turn and come back around on the correct path may be varied from case to case. For some, a need to prove to others of their capabilities lead them to become overly ego mind based and therefore becoming irrational and making the wrong decisions. However, as they finally realise their mistake, it may be that very same need to prove themselves that brings them back around. Maybe they are doing it for a loved one, or maybe it is a close friend, or a family member. People change because of their environment and the circumstances in which they are caught up in. The people around them may cause them to change as well as the situations and things that happen in their lives. I dont think it is possible to stay irrational for one's ENTIRE lifetime because things change and one cannot simply go on living the way they have always been. Some things in life simply change, and they will catch us by surprise. And when we are faced with challenging situations or with decisions that we do not want to face, people change. It is a natural thing to change. And therefore it should also be natural that at some point in a person's life, they will realise that what they are doing is just not coping with their surroundings and that they simply cannot go on living the way they are. This catalyzes the need to seek new opportunities and options for change. And that change will determine where the person goes with their life. When they are faced with difficulties in their life, they may suddenly come to a realisation that they are living an unworthy life and that things need to change. I think there is always a turning point somewhere in each of our lives, if not more than one. Some people need a DRAMATIC one, others dont. But I think this is still part of that connection that exists within the inner being with the universal soul, and how that connection serves to remind us to be on track in our lives and to return to the universal being.

Hope this made sense...

Good points, all of you! So, several of you have reasoned that the supreme being can not be contaminated by the evil deeds of an individuals. Fermin said it:

I do\'t think it is possible to contaminate (or make something) that is INIFINITE in possibilities and potential evil or good--because doesn't the Collective Unconscious, which encompasses every trait and characteristic that we can possibly have, already have all the potential that we consider evil and all the potential that we consider good?

There appear to be mixed feelings, however, on the limits of irrationality. Let's shift the discussion to address the other side of the spectrum of unlimited potential. What if we had a person who has achieved enlightenment, or "oneness" with the Being. If he or she were to transcend any more in either mind or being, would the acheived unity and balance of mind & Being be upset? So is unlimited human potential really accessible to human beings?

Hola StephChennn!

is there a limit to a person's irrationality/immorality? Think about with yourself or someone you know well, when you have done something irrational, do you just forget about it or do you stop and correct it? What goes through your/a person's mind if you/they do come around?
Is it possible to never come off irrational morals?

I believe that there is no limit to a person’s irrationality/immorality. We have unlimited potential, but this boundless potential does not specifically refer to good or evil. I think that we all have the potential to “go bad,” if our background and conditioning plant seeds that will lead towards that path. Think about Macbeth, who, in order to become king, ends up killing the original king. (I think it’s like this, I don’t really remember the details of the plot.) However, for the rest of his life, he is plagued with guilt and shame. This guilt and shame builds up more and more irrationality within him, which reaches its boiling point when he finally goes completely insane; he has illusions of “never being able to wash the blood off his hands.”

As for your second question, I think the way people respond to irrationality is based on their own personality. A person may be capable of recognizing his or her mistakes, and therefore, are able to stop and correct it. Another person may be extremely tenacious, and refuses to see the faultiness in their acts – this will prevent them from correcting their irrationality. Yet, I think that irrationality / immortality is a poisonous that becomes increasingly hazardous over time. For example, a little kid may start by stealing a lollipop from his or her classmate. At first, the kid may feel guilty for doing so. However, after a while, when the kid sees that nothing happens or no one notices his stealing of lollipops, the kid discards his guilt. This is kind of like habituation from biology – the kid becomes accustomed to this “immortal act.” Over time, the kid starts to do things that are even more “immortal” – such as hurting people, stealing money, and eventually, maybe even killing people.

I think that when an individual does come around realizing their irrationality and immortality, what happens is that their mind, or ego mind, gets splashed in their face with a bucket of ice water. This makes the individual realize that the world does not revolve around them – does not revolve around their ego mind. This may be a result of observing the amount of pain a person’s irrationality has bestowed upon a loved one, or may be a consequence of experiencing the bitter aftermath their irrationality has brought the individual. This sense of “remorse,” I believe, arises when we start stepping back a little bit from the ego mind.

hey guys! sorry but I'm just going to post although i only read a few of your posts, promise I'll go on tomorrow and read everybody's! There was Graduation Ceremony today and i got home at 11pm, so plz let me off the hook here, thanks!

OKIEE. um. I agree with Vicky that there is no limit to a person's rationality and immorality because-- look at "The Fall of the House of Usher". The insane guy-- way too tired to remember his name.. i think it was Roderick or something. Anyway... Roger/Roderick's (?) loss of control over his ego-mind results in his freefall into the unknown irrational world that causes the blur between reality and imagination-- there is no boundaries, which kinda justifies that there is no limits to human irrationality, in Poe's POV though. Also the outer world is subservient to the inner world (as in our spirit/soul/ mind/ intuition/wisdom/essence/ Being) because thoughts create reality. So to me, there doesn't seem to be a limit to our irrationality.

In class, we've discussed that irrationality--in other words, our reactions to certain situations and our impulse, and our unecessary, BOO HAO thoughts spontaneously appearing-- is a product of the mind. Mind--> thoughts and emotion--> believing in that particular thoughts BECAUSE of emotions (since we tend to follow our emotions most of the time than rationalize things)--> thoughts creating reality is connected to the mind. Also the mind generates curiousity and passion which we've inferred in class today. SO. thoughts--belief/what you think IS it will become part of reality--physical world, which shows that irrationality does not have limits because our mind is so powerful. BUt i think controlling the mind--Eknath--is getting rid of ignorance and stimulating self-awareness which MAY allow someone to use their prefrontal cortex, in other words, it may allow someone to reason better/ control their reactions or irrational behaviors better; more self-control. Self-control leads to the suppression of the mind = suppression of immoral/irrational behavior/values.

(guys, i'm hella tired from being under immense pressure the whole day so just don't passively read it as it may be illogical or inaccurate-- go search for your own answers! i really want to see how the rest of you think about this)

I'll post answers to other questions tomorrow. BYEEE!