Oh. My. GOD.

In the beginning was homo erectus.

Then, came God.

One of the many differences that separated modern humans from our hominid ancestors is us performing ceremonial practices...we began worship a higher being/God and burying our dead.

But why did we develop such habits in the first place? Does religion serve an actual purpose? Also, why are more and more people proclaiming themselves as atheists in today's society(especially in the West)?

Sites:
forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/why-do-we-have-religion-3546.html
www.topix.com/forum/science/anthropology
www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2070003

FIRSTTT. GOTTA CLAIM IT.

haha it's claimed.

Hannah Park wrote:But why did we develop such habits in the first place? Does religion serve an actual purpose? Also, why are more and more people proclaiming themselves as atheists in today's society(especially in the West)?

Little bit of a correction: Didn't Neanderthals also worship and bury their dead? Even though Neanderthals are considered to be not a part of our Hominid ancestors, they are pretty close, right? Despite the possible fact that we wiped them out, they are still part of the whole "bury the dead" ordeal.

Pulling in together many other people's previous discussions, i think that such habits of religion and worshipping religion came out from how possibly the homo sapiens were the first to develop the ego-mind, which gave us further ability to do such things. In my view, religion seems to serve as something to help us look to a source of energy and being that is "higher" than us but also give us spiritual guidance and the path to identity within ourselves. It's like we are worshipping something higher but in the end we find the answers within ourselves. That is how I view religion.

And I find your question about why more and more people are claiming to be atheists as time passes on. In a bit of a pessimistic point of view, I think that people are becoming atheists by becoming more attached to their mind than their Beings. Note how I said their MINDS, not the EGO-MINDS. I said this because not in a way that they are attached to their minds that have gone into overdrive but more of the mind in itself that it always has the possibility of going into overdrive. So by having the mind become more and more active, the people might have found "no need" to access to the Higher Being with a more selfish (?) point of view that there is no Higher Being and that all that is given to him or her is within his or her power. I hope this somehow makes sense because I'm getting confused as well.
Hehe.

I'll come back later to see what others have to say about this.

Hey Hannah!

Second!

To answer you question in a really concise manner (just like you want), I think that people first began to bury the dead and have rituals and ceremonies because they thought that those were ways to connect with the dead person's spirit and therefore, his or her essence more. When we have put that much work and dedication into planning a ceremony for a certain somebody, it DOES feel as though we have been spending time with them even if this is only a trick of the mind. Is it though? Ceremonies for the dead not only honor the dead in a societal sense, but they also allow us time to ponder over the meaning of life and death and thus, they give us the opportunity to discover interconnectivty and the Universal Being. Therefore, rituals and ceremonies can be said to be other ways to connect with Being?

Yet, as you said, more and more people are abandoning such practices and proclaiming themselve atheists, especially in the West. I still need time to think about the "especially in the West" part, but in general, I think that the reason for such a departure is that religion and these ceremonial rituals have lost their intial meaning and being, and have instead, become rote and boring. When something (like Sunday mass) becomes only a habit that one can perform while half asleep, the person will no longer value the practice and will then no longer be able to feel its essence. Thus, by the rituals becoming simply 'another one of society's expectations and norms,' these religious rituals have lost their original meaningful essence, which is why some people no longer understand and appreciate them.

See, that was SHORT!

There are plenty of motives behind religion, and most vary greatly.

The very reason for religion is actually present in all of our discussions. Simply put, if we had definite answers to all of these questions, there wouldnt be any room for such discussion.

So then, the first, and probably most basic reason I believe, is a thirst for knowledge and answers to the unexplainable phenomena of the universe.

From this reason on, it branches out into the varying motives.

One of the motives, evident in Christianity and Buddhism, is to guide people and teach them better, happier ways to go through life, and to promote peaceful acts in general. This is why many religions are associated with charitable organizations and/or have their own orphanages.

It is from this part where the path goes downhill.
As many of you may have noticed, there are few things more dangerous than those who are far too devoted to the wrong means. For example, suicide bombers are actually a result of religion, though I believe there actions already diverge far from the roots of Islam.

There are people who seek to manipulate others for personal means and gain, and religion acts like a brainwashing agent for them to exploit.

Such corruption goes into nearly every religion. You have people using donations for non-charitable means, people convincing others to go on massacres, even waging war (the Crusades was a good example of this).

Recently, more and more religions have been developed, and their motives seem unusually suspicious. In response, many people have started to turn to atheism or revert back to agnostics, since the teachings just seem absurd at times.

Others take a more satirical approach, and purposely set up absurd religions to spite the others (go look up the flying spaghetti monster).

Ultimately, the roots of religion are beneficial, but nothing is sacred. There is nothing man cannot corrupt.

Edit: calm down. It's just a post order....

But why did we develop such habits in the first place? Does religion serve an actual purpose? Also, why are more and more people proclaiming themselves as atheists in today's society(especially in the West)?

why did religion start developing? maybe it could be because there were so many unexplainable events happening all around and they needed something, some reason for everythign that was happening. But because they had nothing that could explain these happenings, man created God (higher being) to be the reason; to just have something to believe in and rely on. I mean isnt it so much easier when there is something/someone you can rely on and believe in? it makes living easier and maybe gives people more confidence in what htey do. religion is like a specific mind set and belief, it is there maybe ot just help people to understand and comprehend life better.

I, personally, am not a very religious person..maybe more and more people are becoming atheists because religion is becoming more and more complicated. or as henning said, people are starting to be religious for the wrong reasons or using religion as a justification for wrong doings.

(Image courtesy The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.)

In the words of a Pastafarian, "ramen."

--------------------------------------------------
Don't mean any offense with this post, just thought I'd elaborate a bit more on the FSM and its motives.
Believers are mostly comprised of Atheists and agnostics, who like to use it to parody the actions of other religions. Course, none of them truly believe in the church's teachings (or do they...?), what's important is why people have gone through such lengths to create religions like these.

Didn't Neanderthals use to perform burial rituals also?
Anyways I dunno actually. all I know is that a sense of tradition and security may come of it. and also, i can understand why yyou came to the idea of us doing rituals while hominids dont becuz this organization somehow makes us feel superior and advanced when a million other creatures also have rituals such as mating rituals adn etc. Maybe its the sense of community?

Religion brings people together and at the time, living in groups was the best way to survive, and remember, the mysticality was part of the purple meme in spiral dynamics, which is part of tier one, focus on survival. Which means that perhaps it WAS just a way to help ensure the better survival of each group. When the people adhered to one set of ideals, they could get work done better and faster and in a more organized manner.

Hm. More and more people are becoming atheists because their expectations for what religion will bring for them aren't fulfilled. Therefore, they take away their trust and choose to be a nonbeliever simply because it doesn't work for them.
Or maybe because they believe humans have the most power. Ego-mind, much.
Well, the definition of "atheist" is according to dictionary.com, "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings." Does that mean an atheist doesn't believe in the Being and essence?
Does being religious necessarily mean that you believe there's this Universal Essence running through all of life? What if it's not God?

hmm i dont htink being atheist is denying the essence of oneself, but rather the external God. i think those are two different things because one might rely more on the individual essence rather than the external higher being to guide them through life.

and as kenny said, they could have just made religion as a survival technique..maybe it wasn't even about religion.
maybe more ppl are starting to become atheists because there is no proof of a God? it could be that before ppl belived in God because it was new and people wanted to believe in a higher being, but now, we are getting more advanced (with technology and physchology) but we are still not able to prove if tehre is a god and we might never be able to, so is it possible that ppl are tired of believing in something that might not even bee there? maybe ppl now desire some hard tangible pprrooof of this being in order to believe in it?

Hi people...

Rosa& Michael: Great...I now feel guilty for excluding the Neanderthals. I mean, according to one theory, we wiped them out so the least I can do is to mention them! Hm...wouldn't it be really sad if the reason we wiped them out was because of some religious or racial reasons ( you have funny eyebrows...DIE!). Oh well... hopefully that's not what happened.

Henning: FSM is awesome! And, He was mentioned in that episode of South Park, the one where Mrs. Garrison fell in love with an atheist. Which makes Him even more awesome.

So questions:

There seems to be some dissagreement: Do you think being an atheist being too (ego)mind based and refusing to accept a superior being than oneself, or is it about relying on oneself for answers of relying of an external Higher Being to guide oneself? Also, what is your thought on agnotism vs. atheism?

Also, what makes religious ceremonies different from rituals animals have like mating rituals? Also, did you hear about that elephant mom that carried around her baby for days after it died? What do you make of that?

And finally, religion survived for thousands and thousands of years. So does it mean that it works? All the religions I can think of involves praying or making offerings/sacrifices...do you think it works, and how?

<-- this is kind of cute actually, if not for the obvious religions implications

Priceless, henning, priceless.

Buddha ism doesnt really sacrifice do they? Buddhists sometimes might sacrifice themselves for others, but they do not sacrifice other organisms for the common Higher force they believe in do they?

Proof that Google is God

Yeah, don't go there if you're easily offended. I trust no one here is.
A good laugh, though.

Spiral dynamics. According to the pack, you can see that mysticism comes after survival. Why? With survival, the focus is entirely upon the physical domain, the material world, with no account for the spiritual domain, the inner self. My guess is that religion planted itself there and grew into something that affected civilization (the Crusades, the churches, Vatican City, blah). I unno.

And now, back to my vocab. (Funny, this place is the place I go to when I procrastinate)

There seems to be some disagreement: Do you think being an atheist being too (ego)mind based and refusing to accept a superior being than oneself, or is it about relying on oneself for answers of relying of an external Higher Being to guide oneself? Also, what is your thought on agnosticism vs. atheism?

Also, what makes religious ceremonies different from rituals animals have like mating rituals? Also, did you hear about that elephant mom that carried around her baby for days after it died? What do you make of that?

And finally, religion survived for thousands and thousands of years. So does it mean that it works? All the religions I can think of involves praying or making offerings/sacrifices...do you think it works, and how?

I personally don't that atheism is merely disregard of a higher being - do we always have to have a guide to find the answers to our questions? Atheism is more like... having philosophies that are alike to a religion, only that they lack the religious figures that symbolize said religion. Atheism and Religion are actually quite alike, when you think about it, only one takes the form of philosophy and the other belief.

Religion survived, I think, because it's a moral support, and something that we can confide to and look towards in every aspect of our lives. Whether or not religion is important, or useful, purely depends on one's perspective. A sign from a higher being may be a chemical reaction to a scientist, but the importance of it being a "sign" is in the way that it affects you to believe.

There seems to be some disagreement: Do you think being an atheist being too (ego)mind based and refusing to accept a superior being than oneself, or is it about relying on oneself for answers of relying of an external Higher Being to guide oneself? Also, what is your thought on agnosticism vs. atheism?

And finally, religion survived for thousands and thousands of years. So does it mean that it works? All the religions I can think of involves praying or making offerings/sacrifices...do you think it works, and how?

For starters, agnotists believe in the possible existence of a Higher Being, but bevcause of their doubts and confusion, they do not worship any god (have no religion.) As for atheists, they are the ones that actually reject the idea of a God, thinking that there is not Higher Being. This self-reliance so to say may seem practical and realistic in our physical world where it seems like God does not exist, but even acknolwedging infinite potential that comes from the Higher Being or Universal Essence which is essentially ourselves, can't the ego-mind possibly get caught up in that idea that it has infinite potential and thus, it can break ALL the rules and do whatever IT wants?

I think that both aspects of atheism are possible--it may simply be an acknowledgement of the control that we have over our lives (there's no such thing as Fate), yet it can also become something negative and increasingly greedy and chaotic as the mind starts to realize its true infinite potential and becomes insolent to an extremity. However, to say that atheists recognize their control and power over their lives due to the fact that they are part of the Universal Being while agnostics do not would be wrong. Agnostics do acknowledge the presence of a Higher Being in the way that some people believe in God or the Law of Attraction--that we can get what we want if we really worked for it--but they do not depend on the God because they are still unsure of His or Her or Its existence. Thus, agnostics also take control of their own lives but they are just a little more open-minded about ANYTHING being possible.

Somehow, I think that being an agnostic or an atheist may be more beneficial to us than being a firm believer in a God. This is so in that sometimes when we believe in God too much, we end up giving Him all the control, saying that HE is in charge of our lives. But, isn't this giving up control over our lives? Isn't this believing in predestination/fate? Yet, when we want something bad enough, we often get what we want--law of attraction. And if somehow we have been praying for the thing for weeks, we may think that correlation equals to causation--when really, it could have been a coincidence.

This is why I think religions still exist after such a long time--because they give people comfort, hope, and faith in that the world is really a BRIGHT, HAPPY place. We often think that we can do anythin bad and as long as we confess our sins and make sacrifices in the future, we will be forgiven. Thus, doesn't religion then serve as an exempter of us takin responsibility for our own actions? And this role is necessary on the physical plane because of the materialism and indulgence yet at the same time, the wish to save 'face' and feel upright in the human society. tThus, has religion become a social tool as it was in The Crucible?

fermin wrote: Thus, doesn't religion then serve as an exempter of us takin responsibility for our own actions?

Praying is in a way like asking for an outer force (divine intervention) to help us get our wishes granted, right? But isn't it kind of like using the Law of Attraction to attract what we want? Like if I pray for a... dog every night before I sleep, and if I believe in God's power to grant me my wish, wouldn't this constant praying attract a cute little Husky puppy to my doorstep? But that means I don't need to take responsibility anymore because praying/ the LoA will get me all the things I want...

Also there was this person from one of the other forums...

I think scientology only SEEMS more far-fetched because we have witnessed it being fabricated by a mere human.

All religion underwent the same process, it's just that all other religions underwent this in a time long long ago, and for some reason, we seem to want to apply credability to things that stand the test of time.

Christianity, for example, has stood the test of time well. But it is in fact no less far-fetched than scientology. The premises are the same. It's just that these foundations were laid for Christianity so long ago, that we give it undue credability. If scientology lasted 2000 years, it would be as credible as Christianity. Similarly, the values and doctrines of Christianity were mocked by most people at the time of their conception, hence the crucafixion of Christ as a false prophet or blasphemer. Only when Constantine officially turned Christianity into a religion, and spread its values via the sword for 2 millenia did it become 'accepted'.

What do you think??

Hannah wrote:Also, what is your thought on agnotism vs. atheism?

The most distinct difference between the atheist and the agnostic is that one's stance is resolutely against theism, and the notion of a higher governing power, at least in a religious/theistic context whereas an agnostic is undecided. Or rather, according to this Wikipedia entry, an agnostic claims that "the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual-beings, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove"

An agnostic is a fence-sitter.

I think a fence-sitter is a good thing to be. You get a better view than everyone else.

Fermin wrote:For starters, agnotists believe in the possible existence of a Higher Being, but bevcause of their doubts and confusion, they do not worship any god (have no religion.)

Why an agnostic remains agnostic varies from person to person. To say all agnostics believe in the possibility of a higher being but don't follow a religion because of doubt and confusion is an overgeneralization and unnecesarily implies that they are pussyfooters.

Hannah wrote:There seems to be some dissagreement: Do you think being an atheist being too (ego)mind based and refusing to accept a superior being than oneself, or is it about relying on oneself for answers of relying of an external Higher Being to guide oneself?

Atheism is very mind-based, although I don't think that quality is characterized by refusal of a superior being than oneself. To me, Atheism seems to be more about assuming control of your life, taking it into your own hands, and becoming your own god.

And Hannah, would you mind deleting the first reply I made in this thread? Was going to make a big insightful post or whatever, but life got in the way.

There seems to be some dissagreement: Do you think being an atheist being too (ego)mind based and refusing to accept a superior being than oneself, or is it about relying on oneself for answers of relying of an external Higher Being to guide oneself? Also, what is your thought on agnotism vs. atheism?

being atheist doesnt necessarily mean bing too egomind based, i think it is more of relying on oneself for answers and guiding oneself instead of looking towards a higher being. when one knows who he/she is, one might have more confidence and doestn desire to seek for a higher being to guide them, instead they can rely on their own self and inner being to lead them.

agnotism VS atheism?? hmm i think agnotism is just a more openminded version because they just have doubts thats why they choose not to believe in god where as atheists just tend to reject god. there is no proof of God so it is reasonable for agnotists to doubt and be skeptical, but there is also always a possibilty (from miracles and unbelievable stories) that God does exist..so agnotism takes in both sides.

Hannah Park wrote:There seems to be some dissagreement: Do you think being an atheist being too (ego)mind based and refusing to accept a superior being than oneself, or is it about relying on oneself for answers of relying of an external Higher Being to guide oneself? Also, what is your thought on agnotism vs. atheism?

Also, what makes religious ceremonies different from rituals animals have like mating rituals? Also, did you hear about that elephant mom that carried around her baby for days after it died? What do you make of that?

And finally, religion survived for thousands and thousands of years. So does it mean that it works? All the religions I can think of involves praying or making offerings/sacrifices...do you think it works, and how?

Pounding questions now, aren't we?

I think that atheism is sort of like a mixture? Actually I would stick to the ego-mind based more. The reason behind this is that I believe atheism developed further as our world entered into a more self-reliant era. Look at us, there are so many things we can do with the mere existence of TIs and PCs. This growing so-called arrogance is possibly one of the reasons why there is a greater amount of people moving into atheism. However, I don't want to pinpoint out that those people that are atheists are wrong because they are going with their ego-minds, not their beings.

We created the concept of a Higher Being when we couldn't get answers about how things work around our world. We created God with the hopes that he has all the answers that we constantly question.

From my possible ego-mind and absolutely personally biased point of view speaking here, I think that religious ceremonies are...well, more mind based and "artificial." The reason behind my bias over here is that I am a Catholic and trust me, Catholic mass is one of the most tedious things you'll ever have to go through. The only thing that will change is the "sermon" part in the middle when the father can go up and speak for forever. Easter is the worst -- he can go up to 1hr and 1/2 nonstop. I am more pro towards the idea that the connection between our selves to the Higher Being should be direct, instead of through mediators. But over here, this is purely my own biased thinking.

I think that religion works as long as there are followers. The reason behind why people have followers is that they have the faith that it works and it has somehow helped them achieve a sense of identity or other things that people look to in a religion. Praying and offering sacrifices are just some of the numerous ways humans look to in order to connect to the Higher Being. Doesn't the law of attraction come over here? As long as the people believe that it will work, in the end the effects will somehow satisfy them.

Take Madagascar 2 for example. King Julian persuades everyone into believing that offering a sacrifice will cause the water to come back. The water did come back after the sacrifice. Except we know that there was Alex behind it. So one way or another, it came true when they believed in it, right?

"Magic Fingers" by Cursed, III: Architects of Troubled Sleep wrote:Kill the shepherds, save the sheep

Awesome lyric from an awesome song by an awesome band.

I have no problem with religious people, until they start pushing their beliefs on me or try to persaude me that Jesus died for my sins, God loves you and whatnot. Christ.

Just to make this more of a discussion and less of a "Let's post our opinion and go back on with our lives"-type thing, does anyone here feel similarly about people trying to convert you?

Hannah wrote:Also, did you hear about that elephant mom that carried around her baby for days after it died? What do you make of that?

Emotional attachment? Animals do funny things. They are capable of being cruel as much as they are of being kind. I've read about polar bears killing baby seals and tossing their corpse about for fun, and not for food. And of course we all know how cats love to play with their food, the food here being mice or rats. Okay, that was rather unrelated but hey, it's one more bit of info to add to the knowledge bank.

Vincent_Lee wrote:
I have no problem with religious people, until they start pushing their beliefs on me or try to persaude me that Jesus died for my sins, God loves you and whatnot. Christ.

Just to make this more of a discussion and less of a "Let's post our opinion and go back on with our lives"-type thing, does anyone here feel similarly about people trying to convert you?

I get annoyed by it as well. A lot of times I'll be questioning the existence of god or any other higher being, and sometimes i'll get real answers that have something to back them up, but then I'll also get answers like, "just feel it," or "go with what you feel is the right path, and you will see in your heart that it is true," or "I cannot help you repair your broken soul and relieve your doubt, but I trust in God to help you find the way."

Stuff like that, yeah. Normally, if I'm in a good mood, I'll take it and empathize, seeing as there have been times where I've felt the same about something, but when I'm less charitable and more down-to-earth. Jesus, it irritates me like hell.

I birthed myself into the Roman Catholic religion. I left it some 45 years ago because I did not like the way it tries to push its ideas on to others.

John

What do you think is main difference between cult and religion? Is cult one step from becoming it's own religion, or is a cult already a religion and people call it a cult because they think it doesn't make sense... Cult sort of has a negative connotation right? Is the main reason Scientology being labled a cult, not because their stories include aliens from outer space and all that but because we actually saw it being "created" so we are kind of biased to think it's nonsense? I mean, all the other major religions around the world was created thousands of years ago, so they are kind of like a part of history...and history is kind of just there, no question about it.

ok...now let's talk about invisible pink unicorns!

"Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them." -quote Unknown..I found it one wiki. Well, if you can't see the unicorn, how can you know that it's a unicorn and not the Loch Ness monster?

Finally, like almost every single religion I know of has a hell along with heaven. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell). Yes, even Buddhism and Taoism (well, ancient Taoism didn't have a hell, but they got one by borrowing from other religions). Can there ever be a religion without it having to scare it's followers with pain and suffering if they don't behave in this life?

I'd imagine it hard to be convince massives of people to follow this weird "moral code of conduct" just because it's the right thing to do. Fear is a very effective tool.

Take a look at the seven sins for example. Let's use "Sloth" as an example. Thou shalt not oversleep or be lazy. Why the hell not? Isn't it relaxing to sit around in bed and do nothing? Why should I follow this stupid arbitrary rule that forbids me from doing something I enjoy? "Gluttony", who wouldn't like to go out and gorge himself at a buffet? Good food is one of the best things in the world!

Why should I torture myself just because it's "the right thing to do?" Why should I not allow myself to indulge in the physical pleasures that this world offers us? Why so senseless?

"Because if you don't, you're going to hell."

Now that might not be too threatening on its own, but imagine being told from the moment you could comprehend language that if you did not act a certain way, dressed in certain manners, etc. that you were going to cook in the fiery pits of eternal damnation, you'd probably traumatized. Manson's (Marilyn, not Charles) biography details his traumatizing childhood experiences with Christian tyranny. I'd be more than happy to lend anyone the book if they're interested; it's a fascinating read.

That perhaps was too old-school of an example. I somewhat doubt preachers nowadays are all fire and brimstone. The element of fear is most likely less prevelant nowadays. Thank God?